Legislature(1993 - 1994)
03/21/1994 01:15 PM House JUD
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 351 - PERMIT TO CARRY CONCEALED WEAPONS Number 885 CHAIR PORTER announced that HB 351 would be heard next and that there was a committee substitute before the committee. He asked ERIC MUSSER to come forward to speak to the changes in HB 351. TAPE 94-47, SIDE B Number 022 REP. DAVIDSON asked if it was Chair Porter's intention to move the bill from committee. Number 040 CHAIR PORTER said that it was his intent to try to move the bill and pointed out that there had been a great deal of public testimony taken in the State Affairs Committee. REP. NORDLUND said he was concerned about being able to understand the bill. Number 139 ERIC MUSSER, Staff, Rep. Brian Porter, addressed CSHB 351. He said on line 1 the title was amended, replacing handgun for concealed weapon. He explained that: Section 1: provides for an affirmative defense. Section 2, line 10: "and locked" was added. Section 3: stayed the same as the original bill. Section 4: the following requirements were added -- applicants must submit two complete sets of fingerprints; provide two frontal view color photographs; must provide a valid Alaska drivers license; and be physically and mentally capable to carry a concealed handgun safely. Additional changes were made with regard to the issuing of a permit: a thirty day waiting period was added to replace the language that would allow for immediate issuance of a permit. Under subsection 9(c), a permit would be valid for three years, replacing the five year provision in the original bill. Page 3, line 23, qualifications: Line 28: "...has not been convicted of" was added; and the misdemeanor offense was added. A list of these misdemeanors are on file. Under the residency requirement on page 4, line 11: ninety days was added to replace one year. Page 4, line 27: "involuntary" was added. Under the application section on page 5, line 11: "physical residence" was added; and on line 13, "Alaska state driver's license or identification card number" was added to the list of information needed on the application. Page 5, line 17: the provision was added that an applicant must provide a demonstrated need for the permit. Page 6, line 2: it was added that any other information could be added to the list of application requirements that the department deemed necessary. Page 6, under demonstration of competence, line 6: "is approved by the department" was added; and on line 7, "The certificate must state the type and size of handguns the applicant has demonstrated competence with." was added. Further language was added that restricted the applicant to carry only the handguns outlined in the above provisions. Additional provision were added as follows: The permittee must demonstrate knowledge of Alaska law relating to firearms and the use of deadly force as well as demonstrate competence with each type and size handgun they wish to carry. Line 19: a permittee must undergo a refresher coarse every six years. Line 26: the department shall establish a fee based on the actual costs incurred to issue the permit and process application. Under the renewal section, page 7, line 10: a permittee must submit two frontal photographs and a single thumb print. Under replacement of permit, page 7, line 24: same provisions as outlined in line 10. Under suspension of permit, page 8, line 4: it was added that an individual under an injunction under AS 25.35.010 - 25.35.020 (domestic violence restraining order) would not be eligible for a permit. Under revocation of permit, page 8, line 30: a permittee is allowed to appeal revocation to the Commissioner of Public Safety. Under liability, page 9, line 4: a line added officers and employees to the list of those not liable for actions of the permittee for which they served. Under possession and display, page 9, line 21: provided a definition for "contacted by a peace officer" and outlined the result of a violation of that section. Under places where permittee may not possess concealed handgun: "school grounds", (8) "a municipality or established village that has prohibited the possession of concealed handguns..." was added. Page 10, line 10: establishes penalty for a Class B misdemeanor. Under misuse of permit, page 10, line 12: the penalty was set forth as a Class A misdemeanor. Under responsibility of permittee, page 10, line 27: it was added that a permittee may only carry the type and size of concealed hand gun with which the holder had demonstrated competency. If this section is violated it would be punishable by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars. Page 11, line 5, under regulations: provides authority to the Department of Public Safety to implement regulations. Page 11, line 7, under prohibition: there was a new section establishing the ballot question for a village or a municipality to opt out. Page 11 establishes a section to outline the procedure of a village or municipality in which to opt out. Page 12, line 16: the definition for concealed handgun was added. Excluded from the definition were shotguns, rifles, derringers or other miniature handguns. Number 396 REP. JEANNETTE JAMES, Prime Sponsor of HB 351, said that she felt a permitting system for carrying a concealed weapon was needed in the state because people are carrying them now and may not be legal. Secondly, with the increase in crime rate and less funds to support an adequate police force, a right to carry a concealed handgun was a matter of public safety. The bill also requires training which provides for gun safety. She continued to summarize the bill, echoing the comments made by Mr. Musser. REP. JAMES said she felt the most important part of the bill was the provision stating the demonstration of competency with the concealed weapon. She added that this provision was very important because it states the permittee must also have knowledge of and understand the laws outlining gun safety. She said she supported the CSHB 351(JUD). Number 475 REP. DAVIDSON asked if the tracking of the permits would be done by the department. Number 480 REP. JAMES responded yes, the tracking would be done by the department. Number 490 REP. DAVIDSON said that he felt it was important that the local communities do the tracking. Number 500 REP. JAMES said that Rep. Davidson's concerns had been addressed when deliberating on the bill previously. The concern was equal treatment. She said it was better to have uniformity and that could be done by the department and not necessarily be possible to do that with all the different communities. She went on to say that a list of all permit holders would be available for each community. Number 510 CHAIR PORTER brought up another related issue that some Bush communities were not in favor of this bill because the village public safety officers (VPSO) do not carry a fire arm. The addition of the opt out provision was a result of this concern. Number 530 REP. NORDLUND said he felt that the opt out provision was set up to fail because the people in the community would all vote for carrying concealed weapons and the one VPSO would vote against. Number 535 CHAIR PORTER said he was encouraged from the testimony around the state that villages are looking more towards the advice and counsel of their elders. Number 549 REP. NORDLUND restated and maintained his concern. Number 554 CHAIR PORTER noted there was nothing precluding someone from carrying a firearm now. Number 558 REP. JAMES commented that there is a stringent list of requirements, qualifications and training a permittee has to meet before receiving a permit. In light of that, she felt that these people would not be a threat to the VPSO. Number 571 REP. DAVIDSON asked why the municipalities didn't decide for themselves ("opting in") the possibility of having concealed weapons in their community. Number 581 REP. JAMES said she felt that if that happened there would not be equality. Number 591 REP. DAVIDSON asked if there was any discussion about liability insurance. REP. JAMES said that it had been discussed, but there was no valid reason concluding that insurance would be provided, and it was a personal option. She went on to say that in other states where concealed weapon permits are allowed, there is only a small percentage of accidental shootings. REP. DAVIDSON commented that there was no psychological profile provision in the bill. Number 643 REP. PHILLIPS asked why the residency requirement was changed from one year to 90 days. Number 647 MR. MUSSER said this was simply conforming to other provisions within the bill. Number 655 REP. PHILLIPS asked about the potential problem of moving around the state and moves from a community that allows a concealed weapons permit to a village that has opted out of the provision. Number 662 CHAIR PORTER said the Department of Public Safety would provide a list of those communities that opt out to the permittee and that it is required of a permittee to know all Alaskan laws regarding a concealed weapon. Number 682 MR. MUSSER referenced page 10, line 19, under permittee responsibilities -- a permittee will be given a copy of the law and they must sign a statement saying they understand the provisions of the law. It is also required of the permittee that they notify the department within thirty days of any change of address. Number 692 There was general discussion regarding the statement of "mentally and physically capable." Number 749 REP. JAMES commented that there was a certification process approved by the department and through that process the department would most likely have the ability to see if the person was not mentally or physically capable. Number 796 REP. JAMES asked how proficiency would be measured. Number 805 CHAIR PORTER said that it would part of the regulations. Number 820 REP. GREEN referenced page 6, line 27, regarding "actual costs" to the department and asked if it was the intent of the revision that the amount reflected in the fiscal note would actually come out of fees charged. Number 828 REP. JAMES said that the committee could disregard the State Affairs fiscal note and the intent of the Judiciary committee substitute was to be revenue neutral. Number 831 REP. PHILLIPS referenced page 3, line 14-17, the section that provides for a retired police officer to be exempt from permit fees. Number 837 REP. JAMES said she had an amendment to delete that section. Number 849 REP. NORDLUND asked about the "demonstrated need" provision. It was noted that there was an amendment by Rep. James to deal with that concern. In addition, Rep. Nordlund asked for clarification regarding where handguns were not allowed and specifically asked about adding banks, bars and schools to the list. Number 855 CHAIR PORTER said that these institutions were included in the existing law. Number 867 REP. NORDLUND asked for clarification of the "suspension of permit" provisions and the provisions of a violation of this section. Specifically, he asked what would be the result if a person had not recertified or if an individual had lied on their application. Number 880 CHAIR PORTER addressed the concerns by referencing the section on revocation of license and noted that if a person lied on an application their permit would be revoked. Number 886 REP. NORDLUND asked what the position of the Department of Public Safety was. TAPE 94-48, SIDE A Number 000 SGT. DAN LOWDEN, Department of Public Safety, said the department opposed HB 351 in principle for two reasons: (1) the current laws provide enough for people to protect themselves; and (2) the department had concerns about the safety of the public at large. REP. NORDLUND asked if in fact the provisions in the law would create a safer environment. Number 093 SGT. LOWDEN said he didn't see that there was a need for HB 351. He said he had not seen a lot of illegal activity regarding concealed weapons. In addition, the training requirements are such that he didn't know if the department could place them on the public. REP. JAMES commented that perhaps the reason that the department has not had problems with those carrying concealed weapons is because those who carry them do not break the law. Number 121 SGT. LOWDEN agreed and clarified his point by saying that because he had not found those breaking the law he didn't see the need for a new law. Number 146 REP. GREEN asked about Florida's concealed weapons law and said there is information to show that since the inception of a concealed weapons law the crime rate has gone down. Number 155 REP. LOWDEN said he didn't agree with the statement regarding crime rate going down. He said the statistics the Department had show that violent crime has continued to rise. Number 214 REP. JAMES said that the statistics may reflect the influx of tourists into that community. MR. LOWDEN commented that Alaska is also a tourist state. Number 231 REP. DAVIDSON asked Mr. Lowden to speculate how many permits may be applied for and asked if this was reflected in the fiscal note. Number 243 MR. LOWDEN said the fiscal note was based on a four percent of the population applying. The numbers were based on data from Florida, Washington and Oregon. In addition, he said the figures were also an attempt to keep the fiscal note revenue neutral. Number 279 REP. DAVIDSON asked if, in general, the state of Alaska has more people carrying firearms. Number 286 MR. LOWDEN said he did not know of any quantitative study that addressed that issue. Number 320 REP. PHILLIPS asked if the department would add to the list of qualifications outlined in this bill if the department was writing the bill. Number 325 MR. LOWDEN said that the department would not support the bill at all. However, he said it may have been better to say that a person convicted of a felony in a given time period would not be eligible for a permit. He also added that the list in the bill is standard for this type of legislation. Number 372 REP. DAVIDSON asked the department would measure "knowledge" with regard to use of a handgun. Number 380 MR. LOWDEN said the National Rifle Association personal protection course includes proficiency, safety and legal issues. This is a standard test that the department would most likely use. Number 407 CHAIR PORTER asked if it would be required that an individual have a successful completion of the course rather than just attendance. Number 410 MR. LOWDEN said yes and added that it would be established in statute. Number 428 REP. DAVIDSON asked if the department would feel more comfortable with a sunset provision in the bill. Number 448 MR. LOWDEN said the sunset provision was not addressed. Number 449 REP. DAVIDSON asked the Chairman if the idea of a sunset provision was addressed. Number 457 REP. JAMES said that no sunset provision was addressed and it was her feeling that once a law is on the books it should stay there and she did not support the idea of a sunset provision. Number 460 REP. NORDLUND asked Sgt. Lowden if the crime rate would be impacted by the passage of this law. Number 477 MR. LOWDEN said the department, in researching the issue, found Oregon, Florida and California to be comparable and it was found that having a concealed weapons law did not have an impact on crime in those states. REP. JAMES moved Amendment 1, which would remove "demonstrated need" on page 5, lines 17-18. This amendment would remove the provision that an applicant provide a demonstrated need to carry a concealed handgun. CHAIR PORTER said he would prefer that it be left in because studies show that of fifteen states researched, with this type of legislation, eight had a "demonstrated need" provision. Number 577 REP. NORDLUND opposed the amendment because he felt that the definition of "demonstrated need" was broad enough. In addition, he said he felt an individual should have to express a need for the permit. Number 582 REP. PHILLIPS aired a concern about the removal of "demonstrated need." Number 593 REP. JAMES made a motion to adopt CSHB 351(JUD) dated 3/18/94. With no objection, CSHB 351(JUD) was adopted. Number 610 A roll call vote was taken on Amendment 1. NO: Nordlund, Davidson, Porter. YES: Kott, Phillips, Green, James. Amendment 1 was adopted. REP. JAMES offered Amendment 2, which would delete all material on page 3, lines 12-22, thereby removing the provision giving retired police officers free permits; and on page 12, lines 11-14, deletes all material thereby removing the definition of alcohol. Number 633 REP. DAVIDSON asked to divide the question. There was no objection to dividing the question. Amendment 2 was before the committee to delete page 3, lines 12-22. Number 647 REP. DAVIDSON said that perhaps this section would be better left in, given the current situation with dwindling resources to fund more police officers; at least the state could provide a free permit to arm them. Number 658 REP. KOTT said he did not feel that a retired police officer should have that benefit. Number 665 REP. DAVIDSON maintained his objection and a roll call vote was taken. NO: Davidson. YES: Nordlund, Phillips, Green, Kott, James, Porter. Amendment 2 was adopted. Number 678 CHAIR PORTER announced that Amendment 3 was before the committee on page 12, lines 11-14, to delete all materials. He said the purpose of the amendment is to remove the definition of alcohol. Number 679 Amendment 3 was moved and adopted without objection. Number 680 CHAIR PORTER asked the wish of the committee. Number 685 REP. DAVIDSON said he would like to hear more public input. Number 693 REP. PHILLIPS moved CSHB 351(JUD) with individual recommendations. Number 700 REP. KOTT said he supported moving the bill out. Number 710 REP. GREEN said he had some grave concerns about the bill but he heard overwhelming support for it from his constituents and therefore would support it. Number 718 CHAIR PORTER said he was concerned about people carrying a concealed firearm, but he would support moving the bill from committee. Number 720 A roll call vote was taken on CSHB 351(JUD). The bill passed unanimously. CHAIR PORTER adjourned the meeting at 3:45 p.m.
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